In 2003/4 Arsenal got through an entire league season without a defeat, winning the league at a canter. They have done less well since.
Fourth and struggling to finish in the Champions League spots for the last two seasons, despite a shiny new (and very impressive) stadium and a good run in the Champions League they have seemed too fragile too often to be considered anything close to league winners or the best side in the country.
They remain, on their day, beautiful to behold - a 4-0 win over Reading immediately springing to mind. But being "good on their day" is a very long way from being good enough to end a season with a zero in the loss column.
And it's hardly surprising.
Only five players remain from the Invincibles: the increasingly veteran Lehman; Gilberto; Ljunberg - who is being linked with Portsmouth; the impressive Toure; and bit-part player Clichy.
A lot of noise has been made of Arsenal's wonderful young players - but sometimes overlooked are the players they let go.
Goal scoring and penalty-winning match-winners such as Pires, Kanu, Reyes, and Wiltord have gone. Steel has gone too. Vieira is the obvious name, but Campbell, Parlour, Edu, and Keown all added ballast to the artists ahead of them. Ashley Cole might not be the most popular man in English football - but he was in 2004 one of the best left-backs in the world.
Of course there are two names I am yet to mention - Cygan and Aliadiare.
Henry or Bergkamp weren't useless either. They were two of the finest footballers to ever ply their trade in England - or anywhere for that matter. They - along with Vieira - were the heart of Arsenal, behind large parts of two title-winning teams, with only Henry missing from Arsene's other title winners.
This triumvirate - Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp - combine the very best of Wenger teams with something more. An end product.
Other players that drove success in early years moved on - Overmars, Petit, Adams (well, the whole back four), Seaman, Wright, Anelka. But each time others came in almost as capable or better.
But you don't get better than Henry, Bergkamp or Vieira.
And that is the fear. Arsenal still play some beautiful football. Still pass and move and counter punch with immeasurable elegance. But when the pressure is on, when the game is going away from you, who will win it in this new young team?
During the unbeaten season there were a few games where it was going badly wrong. 1-0 down to Portsmouth. Pires hits the deck, Henry scores the equaliser. 1-0 down against Liverpool away, Pires scores the winner.
Edu and Henry saw Arsenal come from behind to beat Chelsea, Henry equalised against Charlton; Pires equalised against Spurs in the 69th minute; a Bergkamp strike won the game against Blackburn in December; Pires scored away against Bolton and then the winner against Southampton. Vieira equalised against Chelsea away, Edu scored the winner. Henry and Pires shared the goals to come from 2-1 down to beat Liverpool 4-2. And on the final day of the season, 1-0 down at half time Cole falls, Henry scores the penalty, before Bergkamp unleashed Vieira for the winner.
The kids are good - but away to Bolton and Blackburn in December Begkamp and Pires won the games. Against Manchester City none of the current team found the back of the net, nor could they at West Ham (twice), Sheffield United, or Everton - all these games were lost.
When you look at the skill, fight, and goal scoring ability of the players that have gone it becomes clear why Arsenal are no longer even close to invincible.
Invincibles that have left:
Henry, Bergkamp, Cole, Pires, Vieira, Edu, Campbell, Parlour, Kanu, Reyes, Aliadiere, Keown, Wiltord, Cygan
Invincibles remaining:
Lehman, Gilberto; Ljunberg, Toure, Clichy.
New players:
Fàbregas, Senderos, Rosický, Gallas, van Persie, Hleb, Denílson, Flamini, Diaby, Djourou, Adebayor, Eboué, Hoyte, Walcott, Bendtner, Song.
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Ebren, very nicely skewered the issue. On the GU blogs latest punt at this today, some Arsenal fans are clinging to the fact that Wenger has built at leat three new sides during his tenure.
What they fail to see is that he alwayd had a core of talent to build around.
Although the kids are gifted, as you point out, the old guard are nothing to right home about.
There seems to be a lot of denial about the impact of the new stadium on Wenger's spending power amongst the Gooners too.
I think we can talk about the end of an era. Wenger's ability to build new teams has been undermined by the loss of key players and the lack of funds to replace them.
In the end they are too big a club to go anywhere outside the top 5. But their right to assume top 3 status will have to won again. And that won't happen overnight.
Ebren
What about Merson?? Dont forget it was him Adams, Wright, Keown and Parlour who played a central part in the Graham-Wenger transition. Much prefer Wenger's tactical approach, but probably Graham hasn't been credited sufficiently for the way he transformed the gunners into a championship winning side after two decades of achieving nothing in the league
arsenal's an interesting story at the moment, on and off the pitch
i think that CE is probably right; it looks like the end of an era but the end of one thing is only the beginning of the next thing
the key will probably happens to the ownership of the club, which will dictate if Wenger stays or goes, and who he buys
ebren is right too that the squad needs serioius strengthening and Wenger has nearly always bought to a system rather than gone galactico shopping
does he have the enthusiasm left in him (and the time) to rebuild?
I think there should be a concerted campaign to get AW in the England job and maybe like the leaving of Henry it's the right time for a change
Merson was a late cut. But he was replaced by Bergkamp (not a great backwards step), and I wasn't sure he played much under Wenger so left him out.
As I see it there are some players that you can replace, and some you can't.
Fabregas is the only one to come through since 03/04 who looks like he might fall into that class. The rest (Rosicky, Hleb, van Persie, Gilberto) are in the very good but not great category.
I could be proved wrong here - but there is no doubt that Bergkamp, Henry, and Vieira were in the Great category.
Looking at the unbeaten season Pires had a massive impact as well when it came to important goals.
Great players don't come along too often, no matter how good your talent-spotting is.
Fergie will struggle when Scholes and Giggs go - just like he struggled without Keane and Schmeichel.
Wenger has lost players of similar stature.
Oh - I should point out that I am not doing a Smyth here and writing Wenger off.
The point is that the current team ain't what it used to be, and praising the "wonderful kids" should not distract from the truly great players that have left.
And file - I have a long and boring argument as to why I think Wenger would be an awful international manager, but now is not the time...
ebren, I can counter your argument and add points which will make you believe but, as you say, this is not the time
like smart players, smart managers adapt to suit their challenges
A team ethic is very important, playing for your mates, sticking together etc. but all winning teams have leaders, the ones who will exert their wills when the chips are down, giving the lesser players renewed heart and energy.
For all his perceived image as a grumbler and selfish player and a Big Game Bottler, Henry was a leader, as were Viera and Bergkamp.
I think Lehmann is a limited goalie and a liability in a young defence at set pieces. Kolo Toure is a fine player, but will need Gallas to hit a vein of good form to form the kind of solid partnership that wins league titles. Gilberto is effective but I'm still not convinced by him as a consistent dominator of matches. Cesc has won one FA Cup medal at Arsenal and has scored only 7 goals in more than 100 games. He is a marvellous player, but to me he proves that Wenger is too far from where he needs to be squad wise. He shouldnt have needed to play 100+ games so far.
As for the rest, Van P is a cracking player but can he carry a team the way Henry did? Hleb, Rosicky, Denilson - too lightweight, too similar, not leaders at all. Walcott - puhleeze.
You look at Mikel at Chelsea last season and you see a potential leader. I see nothing of the sort amongst Arse's capable but way too quiet bunch.
The Invincibles owed a great deal to Wenger, not least a large collection of medals and, in some cases, added years to their careers. Almost the wholeof the current Arsenal first team have won little or nothing under Wenger. It matters, especially when things aren't going well.
Probably Ebren is right in suggesting the Highbury-Emirates factor has something to do with the slide. also, for how long can you sustain a coherent building-up process almost completely based on foreign imports?? Dosesn't say much about Arsenal's youth formation policies
Pipita - Interestingly Arsenal's youth policy does have a lot of English players in it, and the last time they won the youth cup eight of the starting eleven were English - Sidwell and Pennant being the most famous (Hoyte was on the bench). Bentley and Upson are also in the Premiership and have England prospects/caps.
It's just that while they are doing well - no club's your policy is going to beat the best young players in the world.
Arsenal have been buying the best players from the best sides at youth tournaments.
Senderos captained the Swiss U-17 team to the European championship, Fabregas top-scored at the U17 world cup (from midfield) and was voted player of the tournament (Spain lost to Brazil in the final). Denilson won the Libertadoros with Sao Paulo, the Fifa world club champs with Sao Paulo, and the U17 Copa America.
So it's not like they are excluding the English, (Ashley Cole, Hoyte is now breaking through, Walcott was purchased at some cost) it's just that there are better players found elsewhere, and any manager picks/buys the best players they can.
Interestingly, Chelsea are investing in English players and have ten players playing for England at various youth levels.
Good point Ebren. But, all the same, seems pointless to me to have those very promising local youth players developing at the club if, at the end of the day, your going to prefer to play it safe by importing, and eventually promoting to the first team, a series of established and youth foreign players in preference to the home bread ones
Fair point Pipita.
Personally, I think there is a problem with Wenger's attitude towards English/British players. It might well be a cultural question, and he does seem to ditch players early. Sidwell and Upson would be good squad members. I think the expensive mistakes that were Jeffers (£10m) and Richard Wright (several mil) made him less trustful (not to mention Pennat - who became the country's most expensive teen or something). I also think there is an attitude problem/difference between English players and others. I'm not sure he enjoys that either.
But it's simplistic and easy to refute if you claim he's anti-English or ignoring youth development or English children, and I was trying to avoid that.
Yeah, I think Arsene is not that bothered whether he plays or promotes english players, but I note a very worrying lack of guts tendency amongst top premier league clubs to promote home grown kids to the first team. It will surely have negative effects on the England team in the not so distant future
Ebren,
yeah there's probably some truth to that; he's not too impressed with the English work ethic or something
but he was loyal to Adams, Keown, Seaman, Cole and others while they were there, it might sound like a bigoted thing but it's not it's a professional thing, what does it say of Engle folk?
I thought that he just might snap at Owen when he left Real, he fits his profile, he might still pick him up on the cheap
He wanted Carrick as well, and I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with Scholes or Giggs.
Doesn't say much about Englers unfortunately.
wasn't there some talking of re-introducing a foreigner cap on Champions League teams?
Hé, mais je t'emmerde d'abord, sale rosbif! C'est facile pour les journalistes, vas-y toi, sur le terrain.
What really worries me is the way Arsene lost his cool for half of last season. Surely more to that than met the eye.
Ebren, very incisive and I have to agree with most of your analysis, but I also think there are several players who are capable of taking on more responsibility as leaders (Gilberto, Gallas, Rosicky on a good day), and will start to do so much more now that Thierry is gone. Still, it's not looking good for us.
I would also like to add that, goal machine or not, van Persie is an irritating little punk.
(Oh dear, I think I've completely outed myself over the last few days. And I try so hard to remain neutral when blogging).
One of my students wrote along these lines today http://fdasjists.blogspot.com/2007/06/end-of-era-by-ahmed-abdillahi.html.
I'm beginning to warm to van Persie, who seems at last to be growing up. You can't build a Premiership / CL winning side around Fabregas - he's a very poor man's Vieira.
Pires won a lot of games for the Invincibles - what a player he was.
Don't worry Munni, there are a good few Arsenal sympathisers here. Well, ok, three, and two of them are French while the other one is a girl, so the Chelsea/Man Utd/Liverpool contingent will probably tell you it doesn't count.
I think that the problems for Wenger were due to outside and not inside factors, his new young team is fine and rebuilding is a work in process which he is familiar with-The timing was just not good:
-Chelsea get sronger and better
-Manutd again-
The arrival of Abramavotich, the sale of Manutd to the glazers all these factors worked against Wenger's plan.Suddenly the barre had to be set higher.
Curiously enough Arsenal did very well against Manchester and Chelsea the last season but couldn't match their consistency.Probably a matter of depth-
It is very hard to replace players of the caliber of :Pires, wiltord, Viera but -and I hope this is not an omen for Henry- none of these players are performing at their Arsenal level anymore (except Viera during the world cup)- consequently their departure didn't hurt the team if keep this in mind.
Wenger handle his young team as a project that he likes to take from scractch to the top. It takes time to do it, but he will......if he stays!
I think that losing Viera was the key element in Arsenal's decline. OK, they reached a CL final after he left, but that was based mostly on an outstanding defensive tenacity, which has now evaporated.
It's all very well having exciting (ex-)strikers like Henry and playing football in pretty paterns but without a solid and reliable figure who will dominate midfield and ensure that you have the secure platform of the majority of possesion to build from, it's all a bit lightweight and periferal.
I think Wenger is Barca bound and that their remaining outstanding talent, Fabregas, will be going back to the club that he REALLY wants to play for with him.
Wenger has achieved great things at Arsenal and will always be rated as one of the greatest managers in English football but on the European stage, Arsenal haven't exactly set the world alight during his tenure. Benitez has had more impact in a European context in the relatively short time that he has been managing an English side.
If he goes to Barca, then Wenger knows that he has an opportunity to immortalise himself in a much wider and credible context. Despite their fame and reputation, Barca still only have the same number of European Cups as Nottingham Forrest and Manchester United, a record that is dwarfed by their arch rivals, Real. Wenger would have the chance to become one of the immortals of european and world football at Barca; something he will never do at Arsenal.
HB - care to comment on Torres?
[You thought I was going to talk about Arsenal? Not likely]
I don't know anything about him apart from the fact that his name keeps coming up in all sorts of transfer speculation.
I read that Liverpool were supposed to be exchanging him with Peter Crouch, which I didn't like the sound of too much since I've become quite fond of Crouchie.
And bingo, another thread about Wenger, Henry and Arsenal hijacked into a Liverpool thread by the usual suspects.
It's just jealousy, I tell you.
Maybe if Liverpool had a "solid and reliable figure who will dominate midfield and ensure that you have the secure platform of the majority of possesion to build from" they could mount a decent title challenge once in a while.
pipita - surprised to see you tow the 'too many foreigners' line...
in a sense, the problem with youth development affects the whole of england, not just arsenal.
if anything, arsene has showed some nouse in spotting young talent, regardless of nationality, prior to inflated price tags attached to aforementioned talent (oops- apologies for that sentence...)
more importantly though, offside, who is the girl here?
The girl? Lulu, of course. For some reason, she posted her answer to munni on Zeph's thread (aka the taproom/cultural center).
marcela, I hope you dont mind a correction, particularly from a monolinguist like me, but it's toe the line.
I was once corrected in an A level politics essay, and I so I always notice it.
I think Wenger's problem is the crowd at the 2ndRates Stadium. They get pissed off too easily. Last season they were actually booing at 1-1 after 60 minutes vs Man City,and there doesnt seem to be a North Bank to lead the way.
and who are he 2-3 french?
A strange pattern has developed the last few years with star players leaving their team in the quest for the big trophy:
-Michael Owen went from Liverpool to Real, but the next season it was liverpool fans who held the parade.
-When Viera went to Juventus he was hopeful to ad the c.l to his collection but it was his old team who went to the final and almost made it with 10 players on the pitch.
-Shevshenko also left Milan thinking he could win it one more time with chelsea, at the end it was Milan.
Coincidence? a repeated scenario may keep repeating itself again and again.
offside, lulu didn’t answer my post on the wrong thread, I have actually left self-pitying Arsenal posts on both threads.
bd/marcela, toe the line is in fact sport-related. Refers to runners lining up with their toes along, and not crossing, the starting line until the signal. Also used in boxing, pre-Queensberry rules. I forget what movie I learned that from.
many thanks, bd! never mind a correction, particularly from one with such command of your mono language as yourself :)
munni, nice trivia. i had always imagined it had something to do with fishing... don't know why.
offside, if girls from other threads count, then there's more than one mourning m. thierry's departure...
Marcela,
if you mean Chanelle, there are unconfirmed reports that she was spotted in Heathrow, at the Iberia counter, wearing a n° 14 Barça shirt.
Marcela
Bluedaddy is right, as usual. The expression 'toe the line' comes from English Parliamentary jargon. It relates to the days when MPs caried swords and were told during heated debates in the house to 'toe the line' ie get their toes behind a line on the floor of the house that meant that they couldn't reach the opposition benches with their drawn swords.
Offside
Ooooh La La ... Lar
Sorry for having the bad manners to answer Andrew's question but I though that sort of thing was allowed on here and also has something to do with why this site was set up in the first place ... non?
I also thought that I said alot more about Arsenal than I did about those who shall not be mentioned on 'an Arsenal thread' ... or perhaps THAT is what is your real boeuf?
The tactical point that I made is valid, which is why Arsenal have won precisely naff all since Paddy did one and thanks to a player like Gerrard, is why Liverpool have won every european and domestic honour that there is to win except the league, with Gerrard being the only player in history to score a goal in every possible club cup final along the way ... peut-etre?
HB - Crespo must be close. Only player to bag a Liertadoros and a CL final goal. I he's got a Uefa cup goal, Italian cup final goal, neither has scored in the Charity Sheild (both have won it).
Oh, and Hernan has league championship medals in three different countries.
I don't think you can blame him for not having the League cup and the FA cup when he has Libertadoros and the Italian Cup.
re: the tactical point - Gerrard does not play like Paddy. Didi did do a similar job. Momo and Masch do it now.
Guitou, does that mean we should be selling Drogba? Can't we just give Sheva back and have that count?
marcela. I'm blushing! Ta muchly.
Ebren
Nah ... just ... nah. (Rolls eyes)
HB dead right on Vieira - as somebody pointed out on a GU thread long ago, they've really needed TWO players to replace him (Fab and Silva).
Think RVP will be a big hit this season if he stays injury free, but Arsenal's real problem is at the back. I don't think Toure and Gallas will gell and they need a commanding figure (a Carragher, Vidic or Terry) but only have Senderos.
Replacing Campbell, Vieira, Henry and Pires was never gonna be easy...
Oh dear Dog, HB, I thought my parody of a GU-style wind up was transparent enough...
:)
Thanks for taking me seriously, though, you're probably the last one here.
And on a serious note, I think that if the Reds manage to hang on to Mascherano, they do have that "solid and reliable figure who will dominate midfield and ensure that you have the secure platform of the majority of possesion to build from".
Offside
Nice unicycle trick there ;o)
But Masche's job is break down opposition attacks and give the ball to someone like .. er, well Steve Gerrard, whose job, rather like Paddy's, is to dominate possesion in midfield and control the game. Paddy and Mr Curran are both excellent at winning possesion, but it isn't their main duty and it wouldn't exactly be the optimum use of their strengths if that 'all' that they did, would it?
Ebren & Offside
When did Mashe, Momo or Didi last do something like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yrXWOmtR0o
In the school playground?
Nice clip.
Semantics, maybe, but if you want to "dominate possesion in midfield", you need to win it first, non?
Vieira could do both. And I'm a little worried about what will happen when he retires from international football. The lad Diaby looks alright, but he's got a long way to go...
I'll always be greatful to Thierry Henry for this moment of magic ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUOgvgNoaxs
... even if he used to give us nightmares too, Jamie Carragher will be a very happy man.
I saw a kid playing football in the street yesterday in Liverpool, where Barca are very popular, wearing a Barca shirt with 'Henry 14' on the back. It was a beautiful moment.
HB - moot point. That's just how Arsenal play.
When did Carragher/Terry/Vidic last do something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUAhxFlWQdE
Gallas has scored a couple of peaches since moving there as well.
Gerrad has the energy of Vieira, and possibly is a technically superior player - but is far too wasteful with possession.
Offside
'Semantics, maybe, but if you want to "dominate possesion in midfield", you need to win it first, non?'
Oui ... mais ... it's also very useful to have a midfield player who it is extremely difficult, or nigh on impossible to get the ball away from too ... a la Vieira et Gerrard.
That's about as far as my ironic use of Francais will take me, by the way, hasn't Cally got a PhD in Semantics? ... or is that Ceramics?
Liverpool's problem seems to be only at one end of the pitch, with a defence that appears near equal to Man U and Chelsea, and a midfield to match anyone's (though a bit short of goals last season - SG down on his usual haul and no Garcia). The deficit they have to make up is the feared striker, the 1-0 in a shitty game guy, the keep three defenders occupied guy.
Rotation can make that kind of player dispirited, and knock him off a good run. Drogba last season seemed to show that it is physically possible to play most games and contribute in nearly every game.
Kuyt seems happy to be a workhorse so maybe he can be paired with more of a thoroughbred player. Torres may be that player, but it is quite a gamble. Berbatov? Owen? McCarthy? Eto'o? Kanoute?
As for the Arse - if van persie replaces TH14, who replaces Van P? Adebayor - I think not.
Any chance of not talking about goalscoring liverpool centre backs please?
And his first Pool goal vs West ham wasnt bad either.
Course when you have Terry and Carvalho at CB you get used to the goals going in from that department.
I see Capello got the push - Evil Knievel had a safer line of work than a football manager!
ebren
I fackin' adore Tony Adams, what a guy! But let's face it ... how often did Tony Adams do that?... oh I know ... Everytime that Arsenal were 3-0 nil up at home against Everton with 5 minutes of the game left and the league title in the bag?
When did Tony Adams, John Terry or William Gallas last do something like this ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3zTVpYprCI
I won't mention the last goal that he scored BD, CE and Pw75 ... although I just did ;o) ... sorry.
Isn't 'a moot' what Miles used to put into the bell of his trumpet to soften the sound?
It is not unknown for Gallas to score good goals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUn7QageCHY
B.D,
not Drogba but Lamps to Barcelona and Malouda in you're all set to win the c.l.I know it sounds crazy but there is another name for repeated scenario: statistics.
as the sailor says;"don't overload the boat".
getting fater it's not getting better.There is a story about the frog who wants to become a bull, offside can explain it better-However with Abidal on his way to Barcelona,on paper, they are looking awfully good.
But it does mean a thing if you don't get that swing....touba...touba....i see chelsea, we shall see.
"HB - Crespo must be close. Only player to bag a Liertadoros and a CL final goal. I he's got a Uefa cup goal, Italian cup final goal, neither has scored in the Charity Sheild (both have won it).
Oh, and Hernan has league championship medals in three different countries.
I don't think you can blame him for not having the League cup and the FA cup when he has Libertadoros and the Italian Cup."
Was this Ebren?? Sounds more like a certain "Pipita":))) Cheers for doing my jog of defending hernan, only thing we need to add now is the famous gary glitter tune allo allo
pipita - apparently crespo scored as a personal gift to you last night... :)
And a nice little move it was as well...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj5UXPt9wD8
That's his second, only just noticed he scored the first as well. Golden boot on the way?
More facts on Crespo to add to those laid out by Ebren.
Find it quite amazing that this is the first copa america he's taking part of. More importantly, the two goals he scored yesterday put him equal on 34 with Maradona as second highest all-time Argentina goalscorer behind Batistuta.
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